Information about http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RudesillJanintervie.pdf
An Interview with Dr. Edmund Storms Author of The Science of Low…
Tags: canr, cold fusion, dr edmund, e library, edmund storms, explanations, explosives, formative years, fusion science, los alamos, low energy, narrative style, nuclear reaction, oratory, primary sources, radiochemist, rockets, ular, ures, website www,Pages: 4
Language: english
Created: Thu, Aug 23, 2007
Display cached document
Page 1
Page 2
Page 3
Page 4
An Interview with Dr. Edmund Storms
Author of The Science of Low Energy Nuclear Reaction
John Allen Rudesill*
W e have the honor and distinction of visiting with Dr.
Edmund Storms, who has recently published his first
book on cold fusion titled The Science of Low Energy Nuclear
It is always fascinating to know what, if any, experiences
from a person's formative years helped steer them toward
the path that they later followed. Can you recall any partic-
Reaction: A Comprehensive Compilation of Evidence and ular experiences or events from your youth during the end
Explanations About Cold Fusion. Dr. Storms has culminated of the depression and war years that shaped your ideals and
his 34 year career as a radiochemist at Los Alamos National ignited your passion?
Laboratory and 18 years in cold fusion science with this
solidly convincing review of the field. The work is written in Edmund Storms (ES): Like many people who made science
a narrative style and is generously replete with tables and fig- their career, I was interested in how nature worked from as
ures to support the text. There are extensive references and early as I can remember. All through high school, I had a lab-
bibliography to enable the reader to oratory in the basement in which I did
identify the primary sources, many of those things modern children are no
which are available on the e-library longer permitted to do, like making
website, www.LENR-CANR.org. The explosives and rockets. I taught myself
book has Forwards by two distin- glass blowing so that I could make a
guished scientists who themselves have Geiger counter to search for uranium. In
long been active in the cold fusion fact, in those days I had to even make
effort. Both Dr. David Nagel, a Professor the vacuum pumps because what little
at George Washington University (D.C.) equipment that was available was much
and Dr. Michael McKubre at SRI in too expensive for a kid to buy.
Menlo Park, California regard this book Nevertheless, I could buy all the chemi-
as a benchmark guide book that will cals to make all of the common explo-
serve scientists and students interested sives. Because our house was near the
in cold fusion as a must-have reference edge of town, the explosions raised no
for many years to come. I agree with alarm. If I had grown up now, I would be
them and highly recommend the book looking forward to a long prison term
for anyone interested in the subject instead of a productive life in science.
area. They will find the book is well- Back then, chemistry was the science
written and accessible to non-scientists that held a kid's attraction because all
and yet it is challenging to serious aca- kinds of neat stuff could be made, some-
demics. Dr. Storms is to be commended times with the added advantage of get-
for the serious effort made to produce ting the parents attention when smoke
this important book. The book is pub- filled the house.
lished by World Scientific Publishing
Company; Infinite Energy hopes to soon Dr. Edmund Storms JAR: Yes, I too made loud noises, smoke,
offer the book in its catalog. and strange colored flames as I became
Readers of Infinite Energy will recognize Ed Storms as a interested in chemistry and later chemical engineering. I
contributor to IE over the years and as having served on the even got paid in my first job to make and test pyrotechnic
magazine's editorial board. This interview was conducted materials. Something beyond smoke and bangs happened in
mainly by email given the geographic separation and time your youth. How did the development and use of the atom-
zone difference. The Q&A will first give us some background ic bombs affect your outlook in your early years?
on and insight into Ed Storms the man from his early years
(not covered in the book). It will then highlight key techni- ES: I found the atom bomb to be a horror and I wanted
cal aspects that Dr. Storms has concluded are critical to the nothing to do with its refinement, even though I eventually
successful replication of cold fusion phenomena. worked at the Los Alamos National Laboratory on non-
weapon programs. Some efforts are too dangerous for all
John Allen Rudesill (JAR): Your landmark book The Science mankind to be developed, no matter what temporary justifi-
of Low energy Nuclear Reaction provides some career biogra- cation is used. This and other examples have convinced me
phical information that gives insight into your adult years. that human society is eventually doomed because increas-
ISSUE 75, 2007 · Infinite Energy 1
ingly lethal weapons will be developed under one pretense together a FP cell and turned on the DC. It didn't take long
or another. Mentally corrupt people will find reasons to use before a radiation alarm was triggered, causing a building
them for what seem to be good reasons at the time. I have evacuation. No more work was allowed after that even
no doubt that cold fusion will be used to enhance the power though the radiation alarm was probably false. You have
of weapons, but meanwhile it can do some good for described in your book some of the events at LANL in the
mankind. Therefore, we in science can only expect to make wake of P&F. What was it like for you at LANL when the F-P
life temporarily better for ourselves and each other because announcement came out and how did that change your
we need more energy, yet every energy source has the poten- career path at the lab?
tial to destroy.
ES: After the F-P announcement, LANL changed and became
JAR: You have made a very clear and powerful statement a very exciting place to work for a short time. Once the
against WMD's and in particular nuclear devices. I tend to claims could not be easily replicated, unimaginative man-
agree with the inevitability of such weapons being misused agers and politicians took over. At the same time, the DOE
despite any of our most passionate efforts to prevent this was applying mindless rules to all work. As a result, a large
from happening. What was the main reason you chose a fraction of the lab retired when they were given a bonus for
Ph.D. in radiochemistry, given your aversion to nuclear leaving. Typically, the people in charge were surprised and
weapons given in the previous answer? had to hire many back as consultants, myself included.
Eventually, Carol and I completed a house in Santa Fe con-
ES: I got interested in radiochemistry only because I was taining a cold fusion laboratory, which made even working
interested in studying under Prof. Kennedy at Washington part-time at LANL unattractive. Seeing how poorly the pres-
University (St. Louis). He started the field of radiochemistry ent laboratory has been treated by the government, I'm glad
and was a great teacher with ideas well beyond the field. The cold fusion came along when it did.
field became even more interesting to me
when weapon testing dumped a lot of JAR: It is now more than 18 years since that
radioactivity on St. Louis. Ordinary people F-P eventful announcement and the world
had no idea what was happening to their has gone through many changes with the
environment and bodies. My studies gave obvious overuse of resources by the growing
me a much better idea of what to fear and human population and our appetite for bet-
what to ignore. ter living conditions. How has your ongo-
ing involvement in cold fusion and low
JAR: During your early years at LANL in the energy nuclear reactions shaped your prior-
late 1950s, did you ever imagine that there ities and values over the last two decades?
might be some remarkable, even astounding
possibilities for peaceful fusion energy and ES: Studying and researching cold fusion
further that you would become an impor- has become my full-time job. Thanks to
tant participant? skeptics, competition for this job has not
been high, making my small efforts signifi-
ES: Neither I nor anyone I know had any cant. So, thanks to the skeptics, I have
idea such nuclear reactions were possible. something to keep me busy. For this, I'm
Yet, many people at LANL tried to make the thankful.
claims work once they heard about the
claims of Fleischmann and Pons. I, and a few others, suc- JAR: It is now ten years since we met at the first energy con-
ceeded, which gave us a reason to continue our studies. ference I ever attended in May of 1997 hosted by ANE
Once I was sure the claim was real, I knew it would have a (Association for New Energy) as I recall in Denver, Colorado.
great effect on my life as well as on society. However, I'm sad It was kind of comical that myself at 6'7" and you nearly the
it took so long and that the energy problems had to get so same height were standing together with Chip Ransford who
serious before people woke up. In addition, the field has is about 6'2" and we were clearly the tallest fellows there. We
been good to me in the interval by giving me something have become friends over the years and I have enjoyed our
worthwhile to do after I retired from LANL. Other people wide ranging conversations. It is sobering that ten years later
who tried to stay in the field have not been as fortunate. the hope that was evident in many of the technology areas
is still not realized in actual commercial hardware despite
JAR: From my own experience, I remember moving from the tireless efforts and sacrifice of many devoted individuals.
development to research at W.R. Grace in 1987 and very Do you feel at this point like a man on a mission regarding
quickly becoming involved in the race to make samples of getting the low energy nuclear reaction technology out of
the exciting new ceramic high temperature superconductor the neonate care and into the mainstream commercial
YBaCuOx 123. My colleagues and I invented a rather elegant pipeline?
process to make the ceramic powder and we sent samples all
over the world. This was exciting compared to our more ES: I have no mission except to get out of bed without too
pedestrian catalyst research. Then in 1989, Pons and much effort and challenge my mind in the lab. Society will
Fleischmann made their historic announcement at a press find cold fusion when the need is greater than the igno-
conference claiming cold fusion. At that time, Grace had a rance. Even then, the idea will be fought by established ener-
competent electrochemistry group and one scientist put gy industries. I can only provide the facts, rather like scat-
2 ISSUE 75, 2007 · Infinite Energy
tering seeds with a hope that some will take root. consistent that disagreement about the reality would have
Unfortunately, land in the U.S. is covered by rocks allowing vanished long ago in any other field. Only the psychological
only a few seeds to grow. I'm too old to remove the rocks, so issues prevent acceptance in this field. Too many people will
I just keep throwing seeds. have to admit they were wrong about an important subject.
In addition, some small-minded people find the field to be
JAR: I see from your answer to the last question about a mis- such a good way to describe poor science that they can not
sion in regard to cold fusion that you don't see yourself give up the metaphor cold fusion has become.
advocating for the acceptance and development of the tech-
nology at least in the vocal and ardent fashion of a Gene JAR: You chide the pathological skeptics as being the alter
Mallove, whose influence continues on through his writings ego of those who conduct pathological science. Another
and Infinite Energy magazine. So let's explore what message(s) very important part of your book examines some of the
you intend for the reader to get through reading your book. more promising mechanisms proposed to explain how cold
Is it reasonable to say that you expect the reader to be con- fusion takes place. You compare the mechanisms on their
vinced that cold fusion is real and that considerable data ability to explain the most observations. Can you summarize
exists to support that conclusion? why the Mills hydrino or in this case deutrino particle is an
essential part of the cold fusion mechanism according to
ES: The book was written mainly to show the reality and to your view?
help people investigate the subject. I have no idea whether
the effect can be made practical or not. It is premature to ES: Several essential conditions must exist before LENR can
expect a practical application and unwise to promise such a occur and be consistent with the "normal" behavior of
result. Nevertheless, I think the probability that cold fusion nature. A source of energy is required along with a mecha-
can be made practical is so high that serious effort is war- nism to cause it to concentrate on a few atoms. Common
ranted. Meanwhile, the need for clean energy has become so experience and the Second Law of Thermodynamics stand in
great, all possibilities need to be explored. the way of such a mechanism. In addition, this mechanism
must overcome or neutralize the Coulomb barrier. Adding to
JAR: In a recent conversation you made an analogy that the problem, this mechanism must be so efficient that it can
describes the main challenge in doing cold fusion and low permit rates in excess of over 1012 reactions/sec, while pro-
energy nuclear reaction experiments. Using geography as an ducing a variety of nuclear reactions involving deuterium or
analogy, you commented that if the nuclear active environ- hydrogen with atoms having a high atomic charge. Only the
ment was the Empire State Building most experimenters Mills hydrino mechanism has all of the necessary features
would miss it because they do not know what city it is in! combined into one theory. In other words, LENR requires
This means that well-designed and conducted experiments the existence of something having the basic features of the
often saw no evidence of LENR or CF because the parameter hydrino. The hydrino forms by an exothermic reaction,
space explored was in the wrong city by analogy. Would you which avoids the problem of spontaneous concentration of
give the reader some highlights from your book that sum- energy. Its formation can place an electron near the nucleus
marize how 18 years of collective work has narrowed the where it can shield the positive charge of the hydrogen or
parameter space toward more consistent hits on the "Empire deuterium nucleus. And it requires the presence of a rare cat-
State Building"? alyst, which accounts for the unique feature of the environ-
ment that makes the process so hard to replicate. A person
ES: This is a materials science problem, not a physics prob- only needs to believe the hydrino is real and cold fusion
lem. Instead of asking what mechanism makes the effect starts to make sense.
happen, we need to ask what environment is required. A
number of methods have been found to work. A search JAR: It is curious that Mills in his early hydrino work
needs to be made to discover what environment is common acknowledges the potential for facilitating fusion and yet he
to these methods. I believe the environment must contain made a clear effort to separate himself and his technology
certain critical elements, but unexpectedly palladium is not from the cold fusion camp perhaps to avoid the attacks from
one of them. Obviously, the environment with its critical the hot fusion critics and skeptics. As a result, he has had
elements is rare, although it is occasionally created by ample sustained funding to develop his discoveries and ideas
chance. The challenge is to increase the probability to 100%. and he also has his own cadre of skeptics and critics. Do you
Once the environment has been created, the mechanism think it is time to initiate a dialog with Mills to appeal for his
works automatically without any additional encouragement. help in understanding the behavior of hydrinos and deutri-
Just like fire, it is not necessary to understand the chemical nos in the nuclear environment?
mechanism to make material burn. An ignorant person only
needs to make a spark and nature does the rest. ES: I think having a dialog with Mills would be very worth-
while. He realized his theory could be applied to LENR many
JAR: Much of your book reviews the challenges of both years ago, but decided not to get involved with the field. I
properly measuring heat via calorimetry and detecting think he was wise because a two front war is seldom won by
nuclear reaction products. Do you think the methods you the defender. It would be ironic if his generally rejected the-
describe and reference can finally convince the more objec- ory would be the long-sought explanation for the generally
tive skeptics that measurement issues are beyond reproach? rejected idea of LENR.
ES: The evidence is now so overwhelming and internally JAR: I have known Mills since 1999 and we have had a num-
ISSUE 75, 2007 · Infinite Energy 3
ber of interesting conversations over the years. I visited his will be slow to be found and accepted. For example, J.
lab in 1999 and also we later analyzed four of his samples Dufour has already provided some observations consistent
informally at Grace during this time. They were halide salts with this idea, but his efforts have had little effect on the
of potassium and rubidium that Mills said contained hydri- popular explanations.
nos. We agreed to subject the samples to several routine ana-
lytical methods that could detect this altered form of hydro- JAR: In conclusion, I and Infinite Energy would like to thank
gen in ways not described in analytical handbooks. We did you for your thoughtful and insightful participation in this
see that the proton NMR had an unusual chemical shift that interview. You have done science and humanity a great serv-
was similar to measurements Mills had made and was not to ice by collecting the many works in this important new
be found in any reference at that time for an alkali halide or energy field of low energy nuclear reactions and organizing
hydride. We also looked at XPS to scan for unusual bond them in a well-narrated and annotated style that is both very
energies which again we did see a weak signal that was sim- accessible and technically deep enough to whet the appetites
ilar to what Mills had seen on these materials. I recall we also of graduate students and beyond. I have no doubt that your
did infrared spectroscopy on the samples and again some effort will stand as a must-have resource for anyone studying
unusual features were seen as Mills told us he had seen. I the frontiers of nuclear science.
have been strongly convinced ever since that Mills has dis-
covered something unique and important. Given your con-
viction that hydrinos and deutrinos are important or even
necessary in cold fusion, wouldn't it make sense to test the About the Author
materials used in these experiments for the anomalous sig- John Allen Rudesill is recent-
natures Mills has cataloged? ly retired after 31+ years as a
Principal Engineer at Grace
ES: LENR, I believe, involves a Mills catalyst, but ones that Davison Refining Catalyst
only operate in a solid. These are not the catalysts Mills pre- Technologies, where he was
dicts will work in a gas. The hydrino materials Mills makes, involved in research and
I believe, will be inert in a solid-based LENR environment. development of new fluid
Although the general mechanism Mills proposed has uni- cracking catalysts and envi-
ronmental additives to lower
versal application, it must be modified when applied to
NOx emissions. He has a BS
LENR. in chemical engineering
from Cal-Poly, Pomona,
JAR: Confirming the presence and participation of hydrinos California (1971), is co-inventor on thirteen U.S. patents for
and/or deutrinos in cold fusion would be a big advance in catalyst innovations and high temperature superconductors,
narrowing the parameter space of study and accelerate and he has co-authored several American Chemical Society
advances in the science of low energy nuclear reactions. Can catalyst papers and book chapters. He has a life-long interest
you offer our readers some thoughts and speculations as to in improved energy technologies and intends to pursue these
how and when this may take place? interests as a second career. He intends to help find answers to
the energy challenges faced by the Earth's growing popula-
tion. John also enjoys playing music on guitar with his lovely
ES: Because few people believe Mills, general application of wife and friends.
his theory to LENR will take a long time. In addition, exper-
imenters generally find what they are looking for. In other *10824 Hilltop Lane, Columbia, MD 21044
words, if the role of the hydrino is not sought, it will not be E-mail: jay.rudesill@worldnet.att.net
found. Therefore, I expect proof that hydrinos play a role
4 ISSUE 75, 2007 · Infinite Energy